— A Polymathic Thought Journey with C. Joybell C. – Part Three


Click here to see part one of the interview.

Click here to see part two of the interview.

Polymathic Thought Journey with C. Joybell C. – Part Three

When you think of the most amazing, close friends you’ve got, what are they like? What qualities drew you to them? I’m trying to get a sense of the kind of discernment you have, when inviting people into your life, closely.  Because other people may struggle in this area, and the kinds of advice/outlook you have in the friend world, may be a useful perspective for others to consider too.

This is a complicated question… it sounds easy but it actually runs deep! I have  close and amazing friends from different phases and stages of my life, and various reasons why I needed them and they needed me. I have some few friends whom I treasure because they have stuck with me and been by my side through thick and through thin, throughout the many, many years; I have amazing and close friends that I consider to be gifts from God because I see the way that they love the people that I love (they are mainly the friends of my loved ones, like my mother and my son for example); and I have solid friends who bring laughter, wings and anchors into my life just because they’re here and they’re wonderful and they make my heart lighter and they add colour. 

We have people who come into our lives in different phases and stages, and we are a different person at each stage. While some friends have seen all the persons that we have become through the years and have always been loyal, other friends are relatively new but you feel like they’ve been there forever… and some friends you treasure truly and madly because they’re the friends of your loved ones and you see how much they love the people that you love.

 I like that. We have different friends at different times, for different reasons. That makes sense. When you think of a healthy, close friendship, what does it make you feel like inside? Versus an unhealthy friendship, and what that feels like?

When I stop to think about a healthy, close friendship, I feel an absence of the need to have a script. You know what I mean? You can go out to lunch with a certain type of friend and there is this constant struggle between your energies, for dominance, for attention, for who’s better than the other, and that just drains your energy and it’s so unhealthy! A healthy friendship is when you go out and you meet and the moment you are in each others’ presence, there’s just no pretensions, there’s just lightheartedness and laughter, there’s no power struggle, there’s no envy. Envy is a friendship killer.

That makes sense.  What if someone is stuck in what they feel is an unhealthy friendship relationship and they don’t think they can “fix” it.  How do you advise they handle that situation?

Stuck in an unhealthy friendship like what I’ve described above? Honestly, you just have to let go of it. Say goodbye to it. Thankfully, it’s not a marriage, so letting go and getting out of that is not that complicated! Some people don’t grow. You’re growing, you’re blooming, you’re reaching for the sunlight… and some friendships will try to drag you back into the ground. They can either join you in the upward flow, or you can remove them from your life.

Do you believe that our friend relationships are here to help us grow? Help us enjoy?  Help us connect?  Help us learn what we do NOT want in our atmosphere?  What is the purpose of having friends?  I know that sounds perhaps like a very simple question, but I am curious what you think. Why do humans (as a general rule) feel compelled to be in friendship-style relationships?

Friendship is the rose of life. I really feel that way. I am a friendly person. I am the person in the gym who is talking to everybody and introducing everybody to everybody. I don’t ever stop to think why I do it or what I can get out of it, it’s just like if I were walking along a pathway and there were wildflowers everywhere, I would pick them! Because I am a flower picker! In that same sense, I make friends with people. What is the purpose of being that way? I don’t know! What is the purpose of picking a wildflower?

We indeed are a social species. Even if some people are less social, or more social, overall the human race is drawn towards being social, having friendships. I think it’s hardwired in our brains to be that way. Maybe there’s a survival element in that sort of programming. I also think there may be deeper, spiritual value in friendship connections even if like you said, the purpose is to enjoy. Would you consider the ability to “enjoy” or experience joy/connection a spiritual virtue?

Oh most definitely so! Joy is the greatest of all spiritual experiences! I always say, that the most spiritual being on Earth, is the happy child! Far more spiritual is the happy child, than the monk on the hill!

I love that. Children are closer to their natural spiritual essence than perhaps other groups, for sure. What if there is someone who is feeling depressed, isolated, alone.  What would you advise to them to get out of their funk?

There is something very childlike about making friends. Look at little toddlers, they thrive on each others’ laughter. It is the innocence of how we come into this world.

I truly understand being depressed, isolated, and alone. Or at least feeling depressed, isolated and alone in my soul (even if it wouldn’t look like it from the outside). Unfortunately, when a person is in this state of mind/ heart, it is very unlikely that they will benefit from being told to go out and be more social, or to go out and make more friends, be more friendly… it’s just too hard. I’ve been there. I have fought it. How did I fight it? The first step is really (I believe) to connect your detached and lonely mind, to your physical body! Focus your mind on doing things with your body. Move. That is actually why I got into the circus arts at the beginning of this year. I have continued to keep on moving in all ways that are easily available to me.

So you used physicality, getting out there and using your body, as a way to help yourself feel better.  What was it about that approach that helped you?  Why do you think it helped?

I do believe, that we all immediately think that loneliness, depression, anxiety, is most obviously cured by trying to connect and reach out to other people; however, I don’t think this is the case. The more you try to do that, in that depressed state of mind, the worse it becomes. Unfortunately. The key, I believe, is to connect your mind to your body, and to really focus on that intently, and seriously, and even severely. I think that this state of mind takes roots in a disconnect between the mind and the physical body. When you bridge that gap, only then are you able to successfully bridge the gap between you and between others. Imagine that there are actually two bodies in your person: one is the mind and the other is your physical body. But they are two distinct bodies. Your goal is to have the two work together, understand each other, comfort one another, and move in unison.

Only when you have been able to bridge these two entities inside of your person, will you be ready to bridge the gap between you and other people.

When I look back at the person I was early into this year, I see a person cold and trembling. Walking around cold and trembling. I felt so alone, I felt like the air in my lungs didn’t even know me. Every step I took was an effort. I am not that person anymore.

I know that must have been so hard to go through…it sounds like you got yourself out of that dark place though and perhaps the lessons you learned along the way about how to help yourself feel better will also help your readers who may have a similar struggle.

So the path towards healing depression/anxiety/isolation/etc. is to go inward. I like that. While we’re on the topic of mind-body connection, do you have any other beliefs in this area? Specifically, do you believe that illness/sickness/injury has any connection to our state of mind, unresolved issues, emotional pain, etc.?  In other words, are our physical issues manifestations of our internal world?  Or do you think there’s not really any connection, that physical illness is its own issue not related to the mental/emotional world?

This is a very delicate topic to discuss… about the connections between physical ailments and the mental/emotional state. It’s delicate because I would never say to someone that they are sick because they need to fix something in their hearts or minds or in their past lives! I do think that many people get sick and they are really not responsible in any way for it. At the same time, I can tell you that I am of the persuasion that ageing is caused by the mind. I believe that human beings age and die because they believe that they will age and die.

I completely understand the sensitive nature. We wouldn’t want to blame people for their illness. At the same time, for me anyway, whenever I have a physical ailment or issue, I always try to consider what does this represent and is there something inside, something I’ve repressed/denied/ignored that needs to be worked out? I don’t think it’s a science, I’m just fascinated by how my body may be trying to get my attention to deal with some sort of internal emotional/mental issue…and I try to be open to that.  But anyway… I’m fascinated by your comment on ageing being caused by the mind! You do not seem to age at all! Please tell me more!

How early on are you conditioned to believe in ageing and dying? Very early. It’s like the number one “reality” introduced to you as a child. “Why is grandma old?” “Why do people die?” It’s like the ultimate destiny you are taught will ultimately befall you. And I believe that is exactly why it happens.

What “story” do you tell yourself about your own aging process?  It sounds like you’ve reprogrammed yourself somehow, or you hold a different belief, and that has become your reality in terms of how you apparently do not age at all!

I just don’t believe in ageing. I don’t believe in our calendar. Okay, so you were born some so and so years ago… why does that have to mean that every year on that date, it means you age? Why? Why would it mean that? Something happens in the universe that makes you age every same day of every year? Really? I am just not feeling that! Who invented a year? What if our years were invented to mean every 80 months is one year? So then you would only age once every 80 months! So that means our ageing process is dependent upon our understanding of a year? No, sorry, I do not see how or why that would be so. It doesn’t work like that, it just does not.

Do you believe it may someday be possible to live indefinitely?

I think it has always been possible to live indefinitely, and I believe there are those among us who already do. It’s just not mainstream.

So…depending on the person, their beliefs, probably their lifestyle too…the same 50 year old may seem “young” and a different 50-year-old may seem much older.


So fascinating about the possibility of living indefinitely!

I’m glad that you are fascinated! I just don’t think it is mainstream, is all.

I know with technology, the “average” person will be able to exchange old parts like on a car and eventually using technology and medical science, physical bodies will be able to be maintained in such ways that living indefinitely could become the norm. But I’m curious about your comment about there are people among us who already do live sort of indefinitely, but it’s not mainstream. Can you tell me more about that?

I do think that there are people who are still living, in all of their youth, for hundreds of years. But of course, something like that would never become mainstream knowledge.

I’m not religious, but I do know that in the Bible, Methuselah was said to have lived hundreds and hundreds of years.

I mean, there are billions of people on the planet. I think maybe a hundred or two hundred people on Earth are like that.

Wow! So interesting!

This is just what I think. I’m not saying that everyone should carve this in stone.

But I really do think that.

Okay, got it.  It’s interesting to consider for sure! Let’s switch gears now and talk about relationships, but of a different sort: romantic relationships!

You recently shared an article you wrote about romantic relationships and some people having an empty shell of a relationship.  You said something along the lines of, true love is when you do not force expectations upon your partner. Did I summarize it right?

People want to collect shells. But shells are things that living creatures have abandoned or have died in. We have all of these relationships and marriages nowadays wherein people do not know how to stand in a single moment and look their partner in the eyes, and come home to that person in their soul. People want to have a marriage, to have a relationship, but they don’t actually want to have a person.

We don’t even know how to feel what’s going on anymore, because all we know is how to run through the listless feelings of that program intended to make us reach certain life goals that we want to show to society (hashtag #relationship goals, hashtag #doingitright, hashtag #blessed).

People are not looking, anymore, for a person. People are looking for “a marriage” or for “a relationship”. I want to have a person, to come home to that person in his eyes. Very hard to find nowadays, as people are both blind and numb.

One thing I wanted to ask you about because it pertains to me, but also I’m sure is relevant for many of your other readers is about when you are with a partner who you have a child or children with. I love the idea of accepting your partner — flaws and all — and not foisting expectations upon them.  In fact, when I got married, our wedding dance song was “Just the way you are,” because I loved the sentiment of that song, and the message about having this person you love in your life, just the way they are. But when we had a baby, I felt like, in order to co-parent with my husband, just the logistics of having a household, raising a baby, handling our finances, etc., there are some sort of expectations for help, collaboration, tag-teaming that came up in me. How would you advise someone like myself to be in a healthy, loving partnership where you have to raise a child while still having the sort of ethos that you talked about in your article? It’s the balance of love vs. duty/responsibilities.

That’s a very real question to ask, and very relevant and needful as well. Definitely there are these many expectations that arise in order to live practically in this world and in sharing a child/children and a home together! My advice would be to see everything going on at home through the lens of human energy. To pay attention to the energies that you are sharing as you try to run your household and try to raise children together. How are you speaking to each other? How are you communicating your needs? All through how you are making those needs known. Synergy is key. Think like a wolf pack. Everybody has their roles, but everybody needs everybody else for who they exactly are.

I have a follow-up question to that.


Say that a couple, who are raising a child or children, has gotten into an energy relationship/cycle that is not ideal. How can couples shift that energy to something more synergistic, like you mentioned a moment ago?

By each one turning his/her own focus onto his/her own energy output, rather than attempting to correct the others’. When each member does this, there is a miracle that takes place. Everything from “what does my body language communicate energetically?” To, “How does the way I move communicate energetically?” Humans are very animal-like. The animals rely on this for all their communication, as they don’t speak in languages. I believe that when we default to this animalistic mode, it really does do wonders.

Back to the body! This might be a theme in our talk today! Excellent! Okay, a few more questions around romantic relationships. How does someone know he/she has found the right partner?

How does one know he/she has found the right partner? There is no answer to this question, because there is another person involved. One may be very sure that he/she has found the right partner, meanwhile the other party does not feel the same way. In that case, the other person is not “the one”, because they do not want to stay! In that light, I think that maybe there actually is an answer, and the answer is outstandingly simple: If you both want to stay, and to stay for a very long time, with the other, because you are each others’ home, you have come home in the other, then that is the one for you.

That makes sense.

“Staying” is a very under appreciated word. It’s not given credit at all.

Oh can you tell me more about that?

“Stay” is a beautiful, powerful word. Even more than love, I believe. If someone were to tell me, “I will stay with you, I will always choose to stay with you.” this would actually mean so much more to me than being told “I love you.”

Stay sort of implies…even if we are having a hard time, we’ll get through it, and I’ll still be there.  “I love you” doesn’t have the same implication.

Love is given too much credit. “I love you” can mean a shitload of things and it’s fucking scary! “I love you” could mean, “I am going to let you go because I love you.” Or it could mean “I am going to leave now because I love you and I’m not good enough for you” or it could mean “We can’t be together because I love you too much to put you in this horrible situation with me.” It could mean “I will let you go now and if you come back again one day you’re truly mine.” Fucking scary shit! Just stay with me. Just choose to stay with me.

What makes a long-term, “staying” kind of partnership work, in your opinion?

Honestly, with me in particular, I don’t think about variables to make a relationship work. That’s too human for me. When it comes to relationships, it’s animalistic for me. You stay with each other because you’d rather die than not.

With your whole being, you are there.

Animalistic instincts, being in your body, being wholehearted, not focused on the shell. So far I’d say these are the main themes that are recurring.

I actually don’t understand how and why the majority of people that I see together, are together! They use the words “it works” or “we are working on it” and they actually feel proud. They wouldn’t die if they were torn apart. They wouldn’t bleed. And that makes me ask myself why they’re together. I want to bleed for another person, I want to share in his bloodstream. I want to be ONE.

Can you say more about being one? And what that means to you?

It’s all very animal for me. Or maybe you could say angel. Maybe angels and animals are alike in this. They say this is how angels love. Angels fell in love with humans a long time ago, hence Noah’s Ark and the great deluge (Biblical flood) and all that. They knew they would die for it, before they did it. They did it anyway. That’s how angels love. Angels love in the face of death, with their whole being. Being one with another person… it’s not very easy to explain it, but 50 thousand poems have been written throughout history to describe it! It happens to some, and when it does, one novel is not enough to contain the descriptions of it! I believe we look for this deepest form of connection in another. Or at least, some of us surely do.

What does it mean to love another person, truly?

What does it mean to truly love another person… different people have different descriptions and unique answers to that. Some will tell you it’s sacrificing what they want, for the other person; some will tell you it’s letting them go; some will tell you it’s fighting for them; some will say it’s being faithful. With me, I really do think I can relate to the Enochian angels. They didn’t give up what they wanted because it was wrong. They loved those humans, and they CHOSE TO STAY with them, even if they knew they would die for it. To me, love is staying.

“Love is staying.”  A quotable quote!

Hahha! Another quotable quote!

Do you believe we live in this life and have relationships (romantic or otherwise) with spirits/beings we have lived in prior lives with somehow? Do you believe in this idea of karma being worked out in multiple lifetimes?

I don’t believe in “karma” through multiple lifetimes; I do, however, believe in being reborn through multiple lifetimes. But not because so and so karma needs to be fixed. I think that energy once created cannot be destroyed, it can only be transformed. I think consciousness/ soul is a human energy. So, it is reborn through lifetimes. I do believe that there are loves that are reborn to the same souls, through many lifetimes. I do believe that some people look for one person, throughout thousands of lifetimes.

That’s a law of physics: energy cannot be created nor destroyed–but it can be transformed.


Slightly different topic, I’ve been meaning to ask you this question for a while now – I am curious what you think.  In general…whether in relationships or elsewhere, when a person is at a crossroads or facing a decision point, do you think it’s better to pay attention to the heart, or to the head? Emotions versus intellect? Or somehow both?

Always the heart.

Why is it best to listen to the heart?

The heart knows ten lifetimes into the future, past what the intellect can grasp.

So the heart has a sort of soul-level wisdom that the intellect lacks?

You can analyze something with your intellect now, and it not be the truth in the end. Not the path for you, in the end. The heart looks for truth, not variables. Variable can and will change. The truth is what remains in the end. Heart sees what cannot yet be observed by the mind.

So say a reader likes this idea of listening to the heart.  How does one get in touch, tune in, and listen to what the heart says?

I think it will pull you, you can’t miss it.

One of my Buddhist teachers from the past taught a lot around “tuning in,” and he said to literally put your hand over your heart and go inside and see what you find. This hand- on- the- heart thing was a “thing.” It was an interesting approach.

That sounds wonderful! I think that is good advice!

Okay sort of related to listening to your heart, can we talk briefly about dreams? Literal night time dreams?

Of course.

What do you think about dreams? Are they important to pay attention to?

I definitely 100% listen to my own dreams. But then I can’t say that all people dream the same way, so I can’t tell other people if they should do the same as I do. But for me, since childhood, my dreams have always showed me the way to go. In fact, all the words I write that people consider to be their bread and butter, these teachings I learned through reading ancient books in my dreams at night! I am taught all these things in my dreams at night!

Wow, that’s amazing!

Are you connecting to some sort of spiritual teachers through your dreams?


Tell me more! About the angels, and about how you dream. So interesting!

It’s like, when I am awake I am living my life… and when I am asleep I just continue to live and be awake, but just in a different place! In very different places. Where I learn many things. Sometimes it’s an ice tundra and I meet with someone living all alone there and I learn a lot. Other times, it’s an ancient library and I learn from the books… so on and so forth. I also speak different languages in my dreams. Fluently. And I read the books in those languages. What compelled you to ask me about dreams? I am curious.

It just came to me.  I hadn’t planned on it until we started our interview and I just felt compelled to ask you about dreams.  I’ve been having a lot of dreams lately myself and I feel very grateful for them. I feel like my dreams teach me lessons and I myself have gotten guidance/information from my dreams that was spot-on, and that my intellect did not provide to me. I’ve also had psychic dreams and also lucid dreams. I’m just fascinated by dreaming. I feel like there are some similarities between listening to the heart, the value of the heart, and also listening to dreams and the value of dreams.

Looks like you were meant to ask the question! I am here for you if you need personal guidance in this particular area.

Oh, thank you!

Most definitely!

I once had a dream years ago, I’ll never forget…

Tell me about it.

My assumption is that my body had died and I was completely back to my spirit self. And I had this sensation like they talk about, like you’re going through a white tunnel towards the light. Although it’s not really a tunnel, it just feels that way because there’s a sensation of going towards this other place.

And when I got to the “end” of the “tunnel,” it was like there were all these souls, they were cylinders of light/energy that were waiting for me. It was like a homecoming party or something.  They were awaiting my return.


And I recognized my grandmother (who passed away many years ago) and I went straight to her first, and I felt so overjoyed to see her and the others! And I wonder, is that how it will be when I return to the spiritual realm?

Probably so.

It felt like I had been dehydrated, starved, and was finally getting to a drink of water and a feast after a long stretch without! It felt joyous to be there again.

I had some recent dreams too, telling me a topic to write a children’s book on. And then in my waking hours I was struggling to identify how to start the story. So then a few weeks later, I had a dream telling me how to start the story, and it’s perfect!

Anyway, I’m so grateful for dreams.  Before we move onto a different topic, do you have any final words of advice/observations regarding dreams?

I honestly feel like this discussion on dreams will be a reason for people to laugh at me and not take me seriously. But I am just being plain honest, because that’s all I can really be! I don’t know what more I can add to this without sounding ridiculous (to others), but I guess I can just say, that there is so much that science cannot explain. Our universe expands by over 5 billion meters per every few seconds. Within that expansion is born far more unknown realities! We will never begin to explain even the mere tip of all of it! So nothing is actually ridiculous. What is ridiculous is thinking that things we do not understand are ridiculous. Because most of what exists in the universe is exactly substance that we cannot explain and cannot understand! So, the next time that you dream, and you feel that it is profound, you feel like there is a message, a way… believe it. It’s for you. It’s something science might never explain. But it’s real!

I completely agree.  I have had a number of psychic dreams myself that were 100% accurate, that gave me information ahead of time that I conveyed to others. And I know it makes me sound crazy and weird to say I had psychic dreams but it’s true. And at the same time that I’m someone capable of having psychic dreams; I’m also logical and normal and sane.  I don’t think those categories are mutually exclusive. And I give you kudos for sharing something vulnerable but truthful!

Thank you, Dr. Cotellessa.

Just the fact that we have bodies and live on earth and there are so many magical things about our world, that’s a lot of weird stuff we just overlook as normal! But we do live in a magical world with lots of unbelievable things happening around us! So, I believe that our reality is unbelievable already, and there must be many more “unbelievable” things out there beyond this world, too.  To me, that is logical.

I agree 100% with what you just said, and you have stated this so well! Yes, what we consider normal, is in fact incredibly magical. It’s just that we already explained it, that’s why we think it’s “normal”. In reality, it’s just not normal that there are human beings living on a planet revolving around a star! It’s bizarre! Not to mention the fact that this planet used to be inhabited by gigantic reptiles!

Yeah, exactly! We live in an everyday, mundane, run-of-the-mill, completely magical and amazing, and unbelievable reality!

I love how you say it! Perfect!


If we were living on a star orbiting a planet which was once inhabited by unicorns, and that was “normal” for us, then can you imagine how we would feel, about the idea of a planet orbiting a star which was once inhabited by giant reptiles?


Yes. I love it when people think and realise things!

I want to write a children’s book at some point in the future, highlighting some of the most magical aspects of this reality on earth.  To underscore that we do live in a magical place.  It’s so easy to forget that in our day-to-day lives.

Like what we are doing now, together!


Please write that book! Children need to grow up thinking like how we are thinking now!

I am a very logical/rational person, but I just think it’s logical to assume that (1) that there’s a lot of weird, magical stuff around us actually right now and (2) it must extend and exist elsewhere in all of reality.  So that’s part of why I am open to the idea of an afterlife/beforelife, angels, spiritual beings, psychic abilities, the power of dreams, etc. It’s just logical.

I agree. Why can’t more people see this? It’s incredibly logically real to think exactly like that.

To me, it is not logical to be close-minded and refute things because of what you’ve been programmed to believe as “scientific” or “rationale.” I have redefined what rationale is by including in it, the necessity of being open minded to what is possible, and even probable about our very odd existence and reality.


I think it takes intellectual bravery to think like this. Not everyone is ready to be brave.

Our reality is bizarre, truly it is. I cannot get past the fact that giant reptiles used to rule the world! Giant reptiles! Flying around and stuff! What a bizarre planet! And then why did we show up, right? Hahha!

It is safer to follow the status quo of just refuting things.  You can feel smart that way I suppose, it’s ego-affirming to just be closed and only believe “facts” that are easily observable.  It’s so much more interesting to consider what’s possible, what may exist, beyond our traditional five senses.

“Intellectual bravery”… I agree 100% on that term!

Just the fact that we are conscious beings, consciousness itself = super bizarre!


To me, you are a real thought leader because you are willing to take risks and share your real opinions and have more cutting-edge thoughts that are so astute and wise!

Thank you so much. I suppose it is bravery.

It is! Okay, shifting gears now, I still want to cover (1) parenting and (2) beauty and fashion stuff with you too.

Go ahead!

Let’s go with parenting as our next topic


You have a book, Raising Nobility: A Magikal Take on Parenting.


Can you summarize for your readers what this book is about?

I imagined what it would be like to run a school like during ancient times. Where children were taught to think and to be. As opposed to being taught in order to become employees one day. A school with marble floors, spiral staircases, maplewood libraries… where Socrates and Plato and Marcus Aurelius would all be teaching! I imagined what it would be like to raise noble souls. And I put it into that book. I teach parents how to become, so that in their becoming, they can lead their children on the same path.

What is the fundamental role of parents in raising a child/children?

I believe it all goes back to connection. I have never seen my son as a subject, as something born of me into this world so that I would fulfill a role. I have always seen my son as a point of deep connection in my life. As a relationship. A relationships that stays with me all my life. A very powerful connection. The role of a parent is that connection, I truly believe that!

Do you think your role as his mother has been more to shape/mold him, or to help him reveal himself (his essence)?  Is a parent’s role more to be a shaper of the child, to help them become a certain way, or to enable the child to shape/create/reveal themselves?

It is a shame, when we begin to see ourselves as fulfilling roles. The moment we look at our newborn child, we see a role we need to fulfill, and a small person we need to handle. There is an automatic disconnect. It shouldn’t be so. We should see a relationship, the kind that is bound by blood. In my life as a mother, I have walked in this world ahead of my son and I believe it is my duty to turn around and take my son’s hand and tell him, “I have walked in this world first and I can show you what this means and what that means and what this over here means and what that over there can do.”

A guide?


You and your son seem quite close.  What is it about your relationship, over the years,  that has helped you get to this place where you two are very close?

We didn’t arrive at a place of closeness. It was always so. He came from my womb! I simply kept it that way.

That makes sense.

A womb outside of my womb!

Of course, a baby is naturally drawn and connected to his mother, but you have been able to maintain that closeness. Tell me about that.

I believe it is due to the fact that I focus on our relationship and not on my role as a mother. Nor on his role as a son.

Whereas some other mother/son relationships perhaps started out close, or they were close in childhood, but as the son became older, they grew apart more or didn’t feel that same sort of parent/child kind of intimacy anymore.

I understand. We live in a world where literally everything threatens to tear valuable relationships apart. Well, not “literally everything”. But, many things.

So you focus more on connecting as two people, without the labels/roles and expectations that come along with those labels?

Yes, exactly. Two people. Again, it is the same as what I discussed regarding romantic relationships. People want to be “a mother” and have “a son”. Those are shells. What is on the inside? Who and where is the person on the inside? Who is this person when you look into his/her eyes? I wanted to have a son, because I wanted to have a person.

That makes complete sense.  I see the parallel whether it’s in a romantic relationship or a mother/child relationship.  Being able to really see the other person, and for them to see you.

So, who is this person? Every day, who is he? This is what I ask myself on the daily.

Have you ever seen the movie, Avatar? It’s one of my favorites.  The main creatures in the movie, the Avatars, greet each other with, “I see you.”  I love that.

Yes! I felt that very deeply. They were portrayed as an entirely advanced and enlightened race, far better than the humans! What we should all aspire to be.

Even better than “I love you”, right?

Yes, and they way they were connected to their planet! And the trees… it makes me wonder, what if instead of “hello” being the standard English greeting, we said, “I see you” instead? How would that simple language shift change the nature of our connection?

I told you… “Love” is a word we overrate. “I see you”, “I stay with you”… these go deeper.

“I see you”, “I understand you”, “I value you”; all much more meaningful than “I love you.”

True. Love has come to mean so many other things. And often scary things.

I remember when I was a teenager and all the kids would say “I love______” (X, Y, Z) I felt like it was defiling the word love. I would only use the word love if I truly meant it.  But I agree, love has lost its meaning in the way it’s used in our language…

I am inspired, through this talk, to use words like that with my son. In fact… let me go talk to him for a minute, I want to tell him that I value him, see him, and understand him…

I also wonder, if you say “I see you,” it is related to one of our five senses–sight.  And I was just wondering, if you say “I feel you,” if you use another one of the senses, how that shifts the meaning as well. And I just wonder, we only have five senses, what other senses might exist in the universe that we don’t even know about.  And what if there was some other deeper way beyond our five senses of connecting and acknowledging another being.  Anyway, I digress. Okay, I will wait, go for it!

(17 minutes later)

I’m so glad I did that! He was very surprised and I think I told him at exactly the right time!

Oh my gosh! So powerful! Everybody wants to be seen, to know they matter, to feel understood. It’s the universal human desire…it’s connection.


Whether with friends, a child, or a romantic partner… everybody wants those things.

Yes. I am so glad to have this conversation with you, Angela!

Me too!  Our conversations are always so wonderful. We can be honest and go DEEP! How did it make you feel, telling your son you see him, understand him, value him?

That made me feel successful! So successful!